Redefined is hosted by me, Zainab Salbi, and brought to you by FindCenter, a search engine for your soul. Part library, part temple, FindCenter presents a world of wisdom, organized. Check it out today at www.findcenter.com. And please subscribe to Redefined for free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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What’s most important about life? What is the essence of life? Is it what we do? How much we earn? How many social media followers we have? Or is it, do we live our lives in kindness to ourselves and to others? Do we live our lives in love to ourselves and to others? In nearly losing my life, I was confronted with these questions and it led me to the conversations that make up Redefined, about how we draw our inner maps and the pursuit of meaningful personal change.

My guest this time, Amy McGrath, is someone who knows about war firsthand. She was the first woman in the Marine Corps to fly a combat mission in an FA-18 where she flew over Afghanistan and Iraq.

It is one thing to talk about war, it’s quite another thing to have fought in and experienced wars. Loved in them and lost loved ones to them. Amy is a woman of conviction and courage, and one who has constantly charted new territories where no one, or sometimes no woman, has gone before. Her experience, as documented in her book Honor Bound, not only speaks of what it means to go for your dreams even when people think it is not possible, it also talks about what it means to stand up for your values despite public attacks, as she experienced in her most recent Senate run in 2020 against Republican leader Mitch McConnell.

In this conversation, we talk about what it means to see your blessings and to use them for good. And how to hold the struggle between faith and duty and loss and love in one’s heart while staying anchored in faith and freedom. Please join me.

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I want to ask you about war and your experience being the first woman in the Marine Corps and to flights combat mission in Afghanistan and Iraq missions. And you’ve taught combat tactics, and you’ve been in different military discussions. What, in your experience, do people not know about war? What do people do not know about wars that they need to understand?

I think for me, I was very conflicted. I had trained to do a job and I was going to do that job and I was very passionate about that job. But also my experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan made me question our own leadership in the United States in ways that I didn’t question prior to those conflicts and made me want to make sure that people that were making decisions about wars in the future had some experience of what it was really like. That it wasn’t so clean. That it’s not always so black and white. And in both of those conflicts, it was very much not black and white.

And I think that was the thing that I tried to come back here to the United States and explain to people when they asked me about wars, particularly on the campaign trail. I would try to explain to them that in some places, it’s not like how you grow up, there’s good guys and bad guys. Sometimes there’s just people surviving, and they’re going to do what they need to do to survive. And that . . . but that has been my experience.

Now in Ukraine and what’s going on, I think it’s a little different in a sense that—and this is my perspective, being an American, here—is that you really have a moral fight that there are good guys and bad guys here. I’m not somebody that believes that every soldier on the other side is somebody who’s inherently evil. But I think that there are evil forces, i.e., Vladimir Putin, and that he has managed to really brainwash much of his population, either into submission or with disinformation, and including his Russian army. And what’s happening in Ukraine is just terrible.

And I was thinking about it yesterday in terms of the human toll and thinking about the fact that we have to continue to work for a world where one man’s ego does not drive such death and destruction in the world. And I think here in America, we have some checks. I’d like to have more checks on our leadership, but we have some. And we have to keep working for a world where you can’t have a Vladimir Putin do what he’s doing right now.

How do we do that? I mean, it’s interesting because I agree with you on the fact that I find it like in a time where we actually need to unite as humanity for Earth and for climate change and all the disaster that is happening in just our Mother Earth, which does not distinguish national geography, frankly, right? Or ethnicity or race or anything like that. And here we are, again, going into that old story of fighting for one man’s honor and ego and whatever it is. How do we do that? How do we bring people to understand that wars are not the solution? And maybe, I don’t know, I mean, maybe one way is to understand how wars fail people, ultimately fail people.

I think the first step is to unite as, as you mentioned so eloquently. Not just governments that are governments of free people, but private industry, which you’re seeing in sort of unprecedented ways. Companies basically saying there is something more important than the dollar. There is something more important than making money, and I’m going to take a stand. Whether it’s BP or McDonald’s or whatever pulling out of Russia and taking a stand. And then just people, in general, uniting, protesting, doing what they can do, donating to humanitarian relief efforts, communications, continuing to talk about this in the news, continuing to make it important to people. I think that’s number one, uniting to push back.

The other thing is, and this is just the military side of me, I believe there is value in strength. I believe there is value in having a strong military, a strong NATO, to be able to stand. And it’s really difficult in an age of nuclear weapons, right? But I think that’s really important. And then I think we have to keep showing the world the human toll of these wars. And I don’t have all the answers, but I think that I believe in the goodness of human beings. For example, if we were able to show the Russian people what is happening right now, I believe that the Russian and the goodness of those people to be able to say, okay, enough is enough.

I have so many questions, it relates to what you said. And one of them is, it’s interesting because as I read your book, and as I look at your career and your speeches, it’s sort of, you’ve found a way to hold between, let’s say the Montessori schooling education that you had as a child, right? Which is more flexible and around each individual child and sort of the strict military schooling that you then had as an adult and in between you went to a Catholic school, I believe as well. Right? And in all your talks, including your answer right now, you just constantly balance between that human, the soulful answers and perspective with the we need strength, we need clarity. How do you do that? And what did these two educations really taught you? Because people get to sway either all the way on the one side or the other, right? They either become very strict or very flexible. What did you learn from your education that taught you to hold both sides of the story?

Well, I think going back to my education, that helped me determine where I want to go. The flexibility, the ability, and then this is what I love about Montessori, to be able to just sort of figure out who you are. And that allowed me to say, okay, the military is what I want. I want that discipline. I want that challenge. And so when I went into the military, it was very much a pragmatic institution. At the end of the day, here are our values, but how are we going to accomplish the mission? And that was always first and foremost on my mind.

And when I think about the world today, I think about, and really in politics, this is sort of what I try to exude as a candidate, is this balance between, all right here are our values, right? But being a leader, you have to have those values, but you have to have them balanced with what is in the realm of possibility. What can be done? Because if you just have values, that’s great, but it’s not going to get things done for people. And in a sense, you may lose people along the way because you’re not moving in the right direction.

And so I always tried to look at things of, hey, I’ve got my values, my core values, those are not going to change. And you’ve seen that a lot in American politics in the last ten years, people who you thought had values. They didn’t really have them, or they lost them. That is something that you can’t lose, but at the same time, you have to be pragmatic. It’s that art of values plus what’s in the realm of possibility? What can be done?

It’s interesting because you also, I would say, had made sacrifices for your values. Or for your dreams, even. So, the question I have, when one is value-driven, when one’s life is value-driven, are there sacrifices that needs to be done? And then how do you deal with these sacrifices? Are they worth it even in the end, some may ask?

I think that’s a really important question. I think for me, I had this drive at a very young age, a drive that many young girls did not have, to go into the military, to fly fighter jets. And I knew it was in me. I knew it. I mean, I was able to go outside and beat all the boys in basketball and soccer. So I had the physical talent. God gave me that talent. I didn’t know why. But I sort of over time figured, oh, that’s why. That’s why I have this drive. That’s why I have this talent. And this is what I have to do and I’m going to do it. And that was sort of what was in me. And I just went with it.

And I always look back at that time and I recognize that a lot of people don’t sort of always have that drive or that guiding path. And I felt blessed to have had that. And so when I say I felt blessed, my favorite quote of all time is, “To whom much is given, much is expected.” I felt like I was given a lot. I was given tremendously loving parents who valued me, even though I was a little bit different. I was given a great education. I was given the ability to be born here in the United States of America, in the land of tremendous opportunity. All of those things, physical ability. And I felt like I’ve got to give back. And that was where the values come in, and that’s where the sacrifice comes in, because it’s not about just reaching, and for me, making a ton of money or whatever. It’s about, hey, you’ve been given a lot. Now you owe it back. You owe it back to our country, you owe it back to your community, you owe it back to your family, and in some respects, you owe it back to humanity, to women, to women around the world to do the very best that you can.

I mean, I’m tearing up because I really, really believe that. And when people ask me, “What’s triggered you to start Women for Women International, and you are twenty-three-years-old immigrant from Iraq, and you don’t know anything about these other people?” I’m like, “I owe it as a human being. This is my human responsibility.” It was clear from me. Actually, I don’t hear many people say what you just said. I was like, thank God, I’m not the . . . Hallelujah! There are sisters out there.

How do you, and did you, combat or deal with sexism? Because you face it apparently, since you were a child, because as you said, like these boys’ games, and then you went into the Marines, and then you went into politics with a lot of sexist guys. How do you deal with that constant sexism, and what are the war stories that taught you about your own strength and tactics to deal with sexism?

Well, it’s there, you have to acknowledge it. I think I sort of look at it now as a, and this isn’t always the best way to talk about it to people, but it’s sort of, to me, a little bit like water off a duck’s back. It’s there. I can’t change it. I can do my best. Somebody told me once in the military, just be excellent. Just go out and be excellent. You’re always going to have to prove yourself in ways that men will not have to. But if you are really good at what you do, what I found in the military was you were accepted. It was harder, but you get there.

And the other thing that helped me was my mom, because she became a medical doctor in the 1960s when women didn’t do that, and she experienced a ton of sexism. And so when it happened to me, I would call up my mom, and I would say, “This is what’s going on, Mom. What do you think?” And her response was, “Oh, that happened to me too. Just whatever. Just be the number one in your class and you’ll be fine.” And so her sort of response, I mean, was “You can do it.” And I experienced this too. You just got to press through. And so that has always been my take of just water off a duck’s back. We’re just going to press through and be excellent.

It’s so interesting, because sometimes, and it’s not only necessarily sexism, sometimes any kind of rejection because of discrimination, any of it, right, it can also be demoralizing, it can be like deflating, like, oh, I have to fight this again, right? I was particularly touched by a story you write about playing soccer match between Egyptian Marines and US Marines. And you were the only woman in the soccer match, and the Egyptian side were unhappy with you being an only woman and unhappy with you wearing shorts. And you’re like, “No, I’m going to do it.” And this is just one example. It happened to be a cultural example, but I think there are many examples that you have in your career of rejection, let’s say, right? It’s just this is a clear example and a simple one also. And you plowed through it.

When you do that, and first of all, it would be great to hear the rest of the story, what happens, because . . . And then when you go plow through the challenge, right, like you just move, what do you need to hold you back? And what does such moments and such experiences teach you about what one needs to do, like what supports you need, what emotional state of mind you go to? What does one need to go to to hold on to strength and believe in this challenging moment?

Well, for me, I always took it as a bit of a challenge. I knew that, especially in the fighter squadron, that I was the only . . . every time that the cockpit opened, especially in a foreign country, you look out and there’s other people that they’d never seen a woman drive, let alone fly a fighter jet. So you knew that the sort of all eyes were on you. And I took it as a bit of a challenge, but I also took it as a way to make a difference. Like I’m here and I can make a difference in their perception of women.

In the case of the soccer tournament, in the soccer match, at the end, the Egyptian men were very respectful of me. I mean, I was a good soccer player. I played Division I soccer in college. So I was only a couple of years out of college and I was still in good shape, and I was a damn good soccer player. And so I think that it sort of floored them a little bit that a woman could hold her own. And I look back on that experience and I think, maybe that changed some people’s minds. I mean, there were thousands of people in the stands, all men. And if I weren’t there, they’d never, may never see a woman do the sorts of things that I did. So that was really cool. I think you do have to just plow through it.

And I remember a story on the campaign trail where I was in front of a editorial board where they go and they sort of grill you with policy questions. There was a man on the board, and this is in the congressional campaign. And he said to me . . . His question was not about policy. It was, he looked at me and he said, “Well, how are you going to . . . You have three small kids. How are you going to manage being a congressperson and flying to Washington DC for three days or four days a week, and these three small kids, how are you going to manage that?” And I looked at him and I said, “You know, I don’t really know. I’m going to call up the incumbent who has the seat right now, and I’m going to ask him how he does it, because he has kids the same age as mine.” And I just left it at that. And all the women on the panel just started shaking their head.

But I mean, you just sort of . . . for me, I kind of try to call out sexism without calling it out so much, but to just expose, like, “Hey man, would you have ever asked that question of a man?” No. No.

Are you seeing that you also have a sports attitude about it, like, okay, this is a game. And no, I don’t mean a game, but a competitive attitude, like, let’s go through it. You don’t let it enter you. You don’t let it deflate you. Is that right? Am I reading that right?

Yeah. I mean, part of this is the confidence I had through sports, which was such a part of my life, it’s this attitude of, all right, bring it on. You think you can beat me, bring it on. I don’t think you can, but let’s try, you can try. And that goes all the way back to being seven, eight-years-old and playing football with my brother and beating all of his friends. [laughs]

No. I love it, because, I mean, you’re reminding me of my boxing instructor, and sort of he said, “When you get hit, you just play, you play around, you fool around, you joke around. You don’t let yourself be hit, basically.” And I think that’s really important for all people who are facing different challenges is that, do not let it come to you. Do something about it, change it, fight it. But don’t let it get into you, so it deflates you and demoralizes you. Yeah.

That’s right. And it’s so important in politics too, because we tend to take a lot of things personally. Most people that say bad things about you, the moment you step into the political arena, you’re hated by 50 percent of the population. And you have to recognize that all those people don’t really know you. You just sort of have to water off a duck’s back. You know who you are. You know you’re a good person inside. You’ve got the experiences that you have. And I think politics is not for people who don’t know who they are, because you will internalize a lot, and it is deflating, because there’s a lot of negativity, a ton of sexism, I mean, attack ads on TV to flyers that have the absolute worst picture of you on it. And you just have to sort of live with it and move on, because what you’re doing is right and important.

You talk a lot about your own faith and belief, and I want to explore how does that play in your life. And I want to quote a couple of things that you said in your book, Honor Bound. One of them is going back to your time in combat, you said duty not withstanding, there was a spiritual reckoning in dropping bombs on humans. Tell us more about that spiritual reckoning. What does that mean? And ultimately, how did you handle it?

I think it’s even hard for me to talk about. If you’re a person of faith as I am, and you sort of grew up with this attitude of “thou shall not kill,” you sort of believe that you are a good person at heart. And when I went into combat and did the things that I did, it made me question that. “Who am I in this world? What am I doing to other human beings?” And I still struggle with that. I still struggle with what it is I did, not because there is a flooding of regret. It’s almost because there isn’t a flooding of regret. I was doing my job. And because there is not a ton of regret, it’s even worse, because what does that say about me as a human being? And so I still struggle with that. A lot of what I deal with now is how do I live my life, the rest of it, and make up for that and do something good for the world.

And there’s a lot of trauma that people who go to war—I mean, there’s a lot of trauma talked about people who face war, civilians, right? But I think there’s not enough talked about the trauma, people who are in war or in combat are also facing. I mean, they’re talked about soldiers with PTSD and all of that. How did you deal? How did you heal in your process? Was it through the VA services, was it through church, was it through therapy? How did you go . . . Was it through just family and friends? I mean, how did you go about it?

I think there were a couple of different things that really helped me. I look back, and you hear a lot about PTSD, and I don’t think I have that. I think what I struggle with is something more in line with what’s called moral injury, and it’s this idea of sort of what I was just talking about, where you did these things, you regret to some degree, but you were also doing your job and you would do it again. And what does that make you as a human? And it’s that idea. And then you add on a layer of why were we there? What were we doing? Was it the right thing to do? And when you question that, particularly in the case of Iraq, as I did, the answers aren’t always black and white, and that’s where the moral injury comes in. What were you asked to do for a fight that may not have been so moral? How I dealt with it when I first came home after the first couple of combat tours, mostly through my mom, who happens to be a psychiatrist. She was a medical doctor and then went back to become a psychiatrist later on in her medical career and that really helped me because she provided me with just some outlets where, when things were really low, she would say things like, “Well, have you exercised today? Get up, go out, go for a walk.” Just those things mattered at that time. Also, dealing with the psychological part of what I was dealing with, she really helped me through that. I did things like I trained my dog. This is before I was married. I trained my dog to be a therapy dog because I wanted to sort of bring some goodness to humanity. So I would take him around to hospitals and nursing homes and things like that. Those were more for me than they were for the patients or the dog. It was more me trying to use my free time to maybe not think about what it is I did overseas and to try to feel like I was a good person again.

Is that the dog that passed away?

Yeah, he passed away a month before my first child was born, but he was a treasure and somebody that I always teased my husband, if he didn’t get along with my husband, my husband never would’ve been my husband. [laughs]

But your husband brought a lot of treats to the dog at the early part of the relationship. I was like, he knows how to get to your heart. [laughs]

He did.

Talking about the dog because I mean, you talk a lot about him at one point in the book and his loss, but beyond the dog, you’ve also lost colleagues, you’ve also lost your father to cancer. What have such deaths taught you about what’s most important about life?

I think the loss of my dad at a really sort of middle of my first campaign was a time when I was going, going, going and it brought me back down to what is this all about? Dad was somebody who championed everything that I did, and he was always behind me, but I took some time off and I remember Mom saying to me, “Dad would want you to get back out there.” And so I did, I took some time off, but I look back at my father, he was so inspirational to me because he was somebody who just wanted to serve and I so value that.

My time overseas, I lost many friends in combat and also aviation in the military is inherently a dangerous profession, whether you’re in combat or not. And I think when you fly for . . . When you’re in the military for twenty-four years and you’re flying for twelve of those, you’re going to lose some friends. It’s a dangerous life. And I’ve looked back on that and I just believe that I’m here and I need to make a difference. When I lost a friend in Afghanistan in my last tour, I came back from that thinking, I’m here and he’s not, I owe it to him and to all of my friends that didn’t make it because it could have been me. It could have been me in that cockpit that day or another day who didn’t make it back. And so I need to make sure that the rest of my life matters.

That’s beautiful. So what I’m hearing from you, rather, is the way you are handling or you’ve handled, the loss is actually to give back, to be in service and it reminds me of when my father called me one day, the house I grew up in Iraq, in Baghdad, Iraq became at one point, the militias took it, it became execution center and then a brothel and then a military base and my dad was calling me crying one day. I was like, “Oh, my, this is happening to our house.” And I was like, “Dad, we are the lucky ones. We are the lucky ones. And we are to do something with being lucky. To make it out, make it safe, being alive, being healthy.” And I feel that’s like you actually, that duty, if you made it in this life, forget about combat or worse. If you made it in this life, you are the lucky one and the lucky ones have responsibility towards others, towards humanity.

Absolutely. To whom much is given, much is expected.

Mm.

And that is so important. Even at times when I don’t want to do, I mean, everybody wakes up some days and they’re like, they don’t really want to do certain things, you just have to, for me, I go back to that. Hey, I’m here for a reason. I made it through for a reason, find that reason.

Mm. Beautiful. And believe in that reason, because that’s the distinction in you. You believed in your gift, God’s gift, if you may, right? You did not dismiss it. You did not dim the light. You actually went with the light. A lot of people dim their lights when they see it, they get afraid of their lights, of their power, of their whatever gifts God has given them. Right? And you just went for the light. You’re like, “Let’s do it.” I love—

Yeah. You bring up such a great word, power. There’s power in being the first woman to do something or to be in a minority in a certain area, whether it’s ethnicity or gender or whatever. You have the power to really shape people’s minds about certain things. I remember that. I can feel that. I felt it in the Marine Corps, I felt it in politics and it’s a responsibility, but it’s also . . . Yeah. It’s powerful.

I love it. I love it. No, Amy, I’ve noticed often something also beautiful about you. You’ve never demonized the other, whoever the other is. You talk about friends of yours who are refugees and how much you love them and you talk about them being as much Americans as anybody else. You talk about high school friends who you visited of different faith and exposed you to different way of life, but yet we’re all humans. Tell me more about that because we are in an era still, I mean, I know Trump is done, but that demonization of the others is still there. Right?

It is.

And we constantly—that us and them.

Yeah.

It’s still there. It’s not erased yet. How do you go about it? What’s your perspective? Because it came innately in you from your childhood but tell me more about that and what people can do if they’re afraid of someone else who is different than them? What can they you to reach where you are, where you’re saying, “Hey, we’re all the same?”

Yeah. We are all the same. I think what did it for me was just getting to know other people. From when I was a child, getting to know a Romanian refugee to, as an adult, being a neighbor to a family from Iran, and that they were just people just like me. And when I look at the United States and I know that we have some great division and there is a lot of issues, but what I truly love about the United States and one of the things I want to be a champion for is the real values of being an American and those real values are accepting of all different cultures, of all different religions and different backgrounds, accepting of that basic part of humanity, that we’re all in this together.

It’s not perfect, right? We’re not there yet. It’s not all equal at this point, but it’s that aspiration and that’s what I saw in the eyes of the Romanian refugee, Verell, when I was a kid, and that’s what I saw in my neighbors, Mona and Numan. This idea of we’re Americans, we’re Americans too, and I love that. That’s what I stood for. That’s why I was proud to wear that flag on my shoulder because I could say, “Yeah, they’re my neighbors.” There’s not that many countries out there that have that kind of coolness about it. I mean, there isn’t and I’m proud of that. I would went all around the world to of the Middle East, to Japan, to station and all kinds of different places and that’s what I loved about America, our diversity. So I think it’s a strength and I think we need more leaders that talk about it as a strength.

It’s so true. I actually think that these values is what we all need to defend, right? It’s more important in my opinion than any, because it’s the soul of America, this value-driven culture, it’s sort of, for me as an immigrant and as someone who grew up in another country, but also lived in other countries, it is indeed what is most unique about America. It’s truly. And Americans like you, fighting for the essence of that values, not being opportunistic about it. I mean, people are opportunistic about it. I was like, no, what is inspiring about this country is people who are fighting for the essence of the value, for the purity of that value, right? That is the most important. We cannot compromise that because we lose everything if we compromise that.

We do, we lose a really important piece of what America is all about. If you look even a hundred years ago, I mean, I was born here in America, but my great-grandparents weren’t necessarily born here. They faced discrimination coming from Ireland or coming from Germany in a different time. And yet we’re all here now and we’re Americans and I look at people who come here and I’m like, “I’m glad you’re here.” The other day I was taking my, I had some things to be fixed, sewing, and I’m not a very good sewer and so I took him into the shop and the woman had a very thick accent. And I asked her where she was from. And she said, “Ukraine.” And I of course, looked at her and said, “How are you and how long have you been here?” And she’d been here for twenty years, but she still has a brother and a sister back in Ukraine and she hadn’t talked to them and couldn’t get ahold of them.

And it was a really hard conversation because I just wanted her to know that we care. But at the end of it, I said to her what I say to a lot of people who come here to the United States is, “I’m glad you’re here. I am. I’m glad she’s our neighbor and a part of our state here in Kentucky and a part of our country, she makes us better, but I wish we could help her family.”

When I first came to America, it was 1990 and it was just a few months before the Gulf War and I came here by coincidence before the Gulf War and I was devastated in the Gulf War because my family were in Iraq. I was seeing CNN with all the green lights. If you remember the screens and all of that and I didn’t know what my family was going through and everyone actually, I mean, in my case, everyone would stop me and was like, “Where are you from?” And I was like, “Iraq.” And they would hug me and they’d say, “Can we do anything?” And I was the enemy—Iraq was the enemy. Right? And people’s like, “Are you okay? Can we help you? Where are your fa—” . . . They didn’t even have to know too much context as much as I was alone here. Right? And there was this generosity and hospitality of welcome and glad you are here, like you said to the Ukrainian woman. Sometimes if we only show love is good enough, sometimes, if that’s the minimum we can do, then that’s good enough.

Amy, you have championed many things. We talked about some of your career, we didn’t talk much and I’m sure everyone knows your heroic candidacy, Senate candidacy against Mitch McConnell. You end your book as you’re enjoying family time. You talk a bit, rather I learn a little bit about your foundation that you’re doing for women veterans. So tell me about how that’s going, but also, I’m curious about, will we see you again in the political field?

Well, so what I’m working on right now is called Honor Bound Inc, and it is an organization that inspires and supports women who have served the country, not just in the military, but have served in many . . . You know, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps, FBI, CIA. If you’ve put your life, you’ve served the country in some capacity. I think you have what it takes to get into the political arena, and I think we need your leadership now more than ever. I mean, women are still only 25 percent of our legislatures around the country, and as women, we win at the same rate as men. The reason there’s only 25 percent women in these places is that we don’t run at the same rate as men.

So what I want to do is help people get started and help those women who have served, because women who have been in the military or other forms of service, we typically don’t have large donor bases to start. We don’t come from political last names or are millionaires, so it’s really hard to get started in politics when you don’t have that. So I wanted to try to help with that, and that’s what I’m working on now.

And as far as me getting back into politics, I am working behind the scenes, and I would love to serve this country if I get the opportunity to do that in the future. So we’ll see, but I think there’s a lot that needs to happen right now. For example, one project that I’m starting to develop is this idea of making sure that we protect the secretaries of state around the country. We know that Trump has wanted to . . . He hasn’t won. He didn’t win in 2020. He came very close to having people basically throw out valid votes, and that’s his path to victory in 2024. And so he’s trying to install people in key positions in key states, i.e., secretaries of states and in key states around the country, that are election deniers, that will just basically take the votes and throw them out if it doesn’t go their way.

I mean, that’s literally what they’re trying to do, and so what I want to do is make sure that the person that gets into those positions is somebody who’s just going to count the votes correctly. It’s not even a partisan thing. But yet, this is work that needs to be done right now. So these are things that I’m working on sort of behind the scenes.

Wonderful, wonderful. And how does it feel being a full-time . . . I can’t say full-time mom. More present in the house, right, because you’re very career-driven all your life, and how does it feel spending more time with the family? That’s what I mean, you know?

Yeah, it’s—

Cooking more, and—

It is. It’s wonderful. I’m not super domestic material. I like to work and do lots of different things, that’s why I have my Honor Bound and my super PAC, Democratic Majority Action, and some other things going on. I also teach national security policy at University of Kentucky, so I got a lot going on, but I am home. I get to read to my children every night, which is awesome. I coach my nine-year-old at baseball, believe it or not, and I coach soccer in the fall to my seven-year-old and nine-year-old.

And it is fun to be home, it is fun to be in their life, and I’m also happy to allow my husband some time to do what he wants to do, which is to go back flying. And that life is not super conducive to a campaign life, so I’ve got to allow him the opportunity to go and train and do what he wants to do, and me hold down the fort for a little bit. So that’s what we’re doing right now. But I look at my home, being a mom and being a daughter and a wife as equally important as anything else I’ve ever done. So even in the middle of the Senate campaign or the House campaign, I didn’t ever want to drop that. That’s so important and remains so.

That’s very, very important. I mean, I actually think that’s most important thing that we keep on raising to people, that careers are important, showing up in this world is important, being in service is important, but do not forget your family, your friends, and yourself. These are all equally important.

Last but not least. I want to ask you some rapid questions. Any music or song you keep on going to for lifting your spirit up or for solace?

Oh gosh, I have a playlist that I do, but I can’t really even think of one song. There is one song that I love, it’s “Come Fly With Me” with my husband and Frank Sinatra. I always love to come back to that, it always makes me happy.

I love that, I love that. Books that you keep on going to?

One of my favorite books, I think you’ll appreciate, is Nicholas Kristof’s Half the Sky. I really read that in a time in my life when I was sort of questioning, what am I doing? I think it’s a fantastic book for women to read, so I like that one. I also love The Soul of America by Jon Meacham, it’s history, American history. American history, as you know, it’s not all perfect and we shouldn’t whitewash it. I think we should teach it to our kids, the good and the bad. But there is a soul there, there is a soul of America, and it’s our job, it’s our generation that is tasked with keeping it alive.

Poem or wisdom that carries your heart through?

There’s a saying by Maya Angelou that I always go back to, and it’s that people will not remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel. And that’s the kind of person I want to be to others. Somebody who cares, somebody who believes in them. So I like that one.

And last, and the last one, I promise, a movie, your favorite movie that you often go and watch and rewatch again?

That’s funny. I have a few favorite movies. One is, it’s kind of corny, but I love The Sound of Music. I’m very much a idealist, I guess. I’m trying to get my kids addicted to that as much as I was. And I love The Princess Bride. It’s an old sort of comedy from twenty-something years ago, and it’s just so funny and I just love that.

Okay. This is an . . . amazing. I grew up in Baghdad, Iraq, with my mom playing Sound of Music all the time. I know all the songs to it as a child in Iraq, and Princess Bride is one of my favorite movie. “Aaaas yoooou wiiiish.” I love it. [laughs]

I love it. I mean, I’ll even say, my seven-year-old will run around with his little plastic sword, and I’m like, “Are you a Inigo Montoya?” [laughs] And he looks at me like, “What are you talking about, Mom?” I’m like, “Oh, we got to watch this movie.”

That’s so beautiful. Amy, it is always a pleasure, always a pleasure being in conversation with you, hearing you, hearing . . . It’s inspiring, honestly. It’s that light within, that belief in values. It’s transparent, it’s seen, it’s authentic, it’s inspiring. Thank you.

Well, thank you for what you do, and to your listeners, don’t give up on America. We, we are America.

[closing piano music]

That was Amy McGrath. Her memoir, Honor Bound, is available everywhere books are sold. For full transcripts of this episode, please visit www.findcenter.com. Do remember to subscribe to this podcast. It is free and made available by Findcenter. Redefined is produced by me, Zainab Salbi, along with Rob Corso, Casey Khan, and Howie Kahn at FreeTime Media. Our music is by John Palmer. Special thanks to Hannah Eiden, Neal Goldman, Caroline Pincus, and Sherra Johnston. See you next week for another episode of Redefined with Zainab Salbi.